I see poor people
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How much architects from all over the world actually make…
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Recently I’ve noticed a traffic increase on one of my polls about the architects’ financial status. In 3 days ~1000 people have voted on the poll. Nice start for a new year. So I decided to check where all the voters are coming from. I’m not obsessed with the amount of readers as some other bloggers. Of course more people read my essays happier I am, but to me my blog is not a commercial enterprise or some sophisticated business strategy. It’s a pure hobby which combines two of my favorite things: architecture & literature. I enjoy playing with writing in 2 languages & I have fun by presenting my ideas in the most radical, free & at times shocking way. Being satisfied emotionally traffic is a secondary topic to me. I check it rarely; my stats system is very basic. Yet with some difficulties I’ve found the source of the interest. It was a tiny publication on Archdaily.
Archdaily is a popular site dedicated to the architecture. I don’t read it because it’s not oriented towards deep analysis; it’s all about the quantity of the info rather than the quality. To read it for architectural professionals would be like for classic music composer to listen to Britney Spears or even better… can you imagine a Chef of some exquisite French restaurant having a dinner at McDonalds? Nevertheless it’s a widely popular site for general public.
In their publication they have asked architects about their salaries. That question has generated 180+ comments. People from all over the world provided their answers. Obviously it was done in a very chaotic way. Yet it is clear that everywhere architect’s pay is pretty low and people are highly dissatisfied with the financial rewards. So I thought of organizing that massive wave of replies. I thought of building a chart of architectural incomes based on those comments… Remember those numbers are coming from the personal answers. So this is not an ultimate true. However the trend is crystal clear… architects are underpaid. Underpaid big time.
Wow, I almost forgot about the issue that brought me to that. How come that all of the sudden people from Archdaily, that powerhouse, that architectural McDonalds have visited my small “homemade bakery” blog? Apparently few readers of Archdaily read my blog as well. In their comments they’ve posted a link to my poll which is related to the theme. That’s so nice. Thank you. Another surprise was to see that I have some enemies! My mystery “enemies” trashed those guys who posted links to my poll. One of the “enemies” pretended to be me! He posted some nonsense under my name & provided a link to my blog… Go figure! All that “fight” about me is a perfect illustration of the old rule “bad publicity is the best publicity”. Anyway I have no idea of who those “enemies” are & I wish them well. Being hated means a lot to me. It means I (or rather my position) is worth something. Something powerful enough to make some folks to hate me. You can’t be loved be everybody, unless you’re a spineless liar. I ‘ll leave it to politicians. I don’t care of being hated, as long as I’m not ignored. So thank you “enemies” for not being indifferent & for the publicity.
And now forget this weird episode from blogger’s life and enjoy the chart. I have sorted the info by the countries & continents. I have also included some original comments from the authors…Most powerful & painful are by the end… Read it. Very interesting stuff!
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(If your country is missing – don’t hesitate to drop a comment. I will proudly add it. Let’s make the list perfectly complete!)
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EUROPE (EURO PER HOUR)
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Bulgaria: 3 – 6 Euro per hour | Young architect (Somebody comments “This is a dream in Lithuania”)
Latvia: 7 – 12 Euro per hour | My boss earns 15 Euro per hour
Switzerland: ~30 Euro per hour | Young architect (“Some people with a foreign diploma would accept less, but they shouldn’t, really”)
Finland: ~21 Euro per hour | Brutto. 6 yrs experience
Belgium: 10-18 Euro per hour | Brutto. 1-5 yrs experience
The solution in Belgium to get better paid, leave the profession or the country
Albania: 2 – 3 Euro per hour | 3-6 yrs experience
Austria: 22 – 29 Euro per hour | 7 yrs experience
Lithuania: ~ 3.6 Euro per hour | Net pay. 2 yrs experience.
Serbia: ~1.25 Euro per hour | A beginner. Paid in cash! (illegal)
No insurance, working every second Saturday. Monthly rent for flat € 120. Still alive!
Russia: ~ 2.15 – 18 Euro per hour | There’s a huge difference between Moscow & the rest of the country.
Croatia: ~ 6 Euro per hour
Monthly payment ~€ 900, average price for 1 sq.m of new apartment is € 1800 (just for navigation!)
Bosnia & Herzegovina: ~ 2.5 Euro per hour | Net pay. 2.5 yrs experience.
Ukraine: 1.25 – 4 Euro per hour | 1-6 yrs experience
Live with my mom, thanks God! no other opportunity I have here for now.
Slovenia: ~ 7 Euro per hour | Net pay. No paid vacation
Sweden: ~ 21 Euro per hour | Brutto. 7 yrs experience.
Czech Republic: ~6 Euro per hour | Brutto. 5 yrs experience
Portugal: 2-6 Euro per hour | 1-3 yrs experience. In Portugal young architects are treated like garbage…
France: ~12 Euro per hour
Finland: ~15 Euro per hour | 2. 5 yrs experience.
Tax 24% 5 weeks holiday per year. Holy s***. And I thought I was a slave…
Germany: 8-12.5 Euro per hour | 3-7 yrs experience.
…thinking about becoming a dental technician or flautist…
Norway: 25-43 Euro per hour | Brutto. 1- 10 yrs experience
Hungary: ~3 Euro per hour | Net pay. (If you have a job! But this is not typical.)
…I’ve just booked a one way ticket to Norway!
Norway: A beer costs 8 pounds here! That money’s gonna disappear…
Netherland: ~11 Euro per hour | Brutto. A beginner.
1800 €/month. Other professions – the same educational level standard pay is 2200+ €/month
Denmark: 25-30 Euro per hour | Brutto. Beginners – 5 yrs. experience. Tax around 45%!!!
But you don’t pay for healthcare, education, etc. Notice that the cost of being alive is sky high in Denmark. The highest tax in the world, most expensive food in Europe, etc.
Poland: 3-6 Euro per hour | Beginners – 5 yrs. experience.
There’s always a fool that will work for 2euro. Bloody true!
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England: 11.5 – 33 Euro per hour
33 | London. As an architect assistant at a large international firm. Is that ok in London?
22 | London. 5 yrs experience. Project Architect
11.5 | Newcastle. I consider myself lucky to even have a job in these times, I volunteered for 4 months before I found this job
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Italy: 4 – 8 Euro per hour
Free | First year after school. In Italy the young architect have a strong life.
4 – 5 | Net pay. 1+ yrs experience
8 | Net pay. 5 yrs experience. The Ukrainian cleaning woman was taking 10 Euro per hour to clean the studio… And this was 3 years ago
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Spain (Madrid): ~9 Euro per hour | 5 yrs experience.
Annual € 19,000 brutto. (21% below the average Spanish salary for men. What a shame!)
On the other hand most of the young Spanish architects are unemployed. Living costs: rent € 490 per room in a shared flat
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Romania: 2.75 – 3 Euro per hour | 5 -7 yrs experience.
That makes ~€ 500 monthly – it’s exactly what my mortgage is; I’m married & I have a son (I’m lucky with my husband).
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Ireland: 5 – 10 Euro per hour | A beginner
When you factor in all the extra unpaid hours it probably drops it down below the minimum wage.
With near 50% unemployment for architects you have to take what you can get unfortunately.
Greece: 5-8 Euro per hour | Net pay. 1 – 5 yrs. experience.
No health insurance. Waitresses get the same + health insurance.
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NORTH AMERICA (USD PER HOUR)
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US:
15.5 $ / h | starter ($ 30,000 per annum)
41 $ / h | 7-9 yrs experience ($ 80,000 per annum)
77 $ / h | 20 yrs experience ($ 150,000 per annum)
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Canada:
Free | students/new immigrants work 3-4 months for free
14 $ / h | starter ($ 30,000 per annum) Tax ~25%
25 $ / h | 5-7 yrs experience ($ 50,000 per annum) Tax ~ 35%
30-35 $ / h | 10+ yrs experience ($ 70K – 80K) Tax ~ 40% No wonder a lot of people move to US.
For a lot of people it might look like a good money. But given the Canadian prices (cars, food, homes) this is on the level of being “very poor person”. Survival mode.
- ha, I wish! are you hiring?
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SOUTH AMERICA (USD PER HOUR)
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Argentina: 6-10 $ per hour | Worked in London as a mason and carpenter for x5 higher salary
Chile: ~7.5 $ per hour
Bolivia: 2-3 $ per hour | If you find work. Good luck! Most prefer work in the illegal commerce
Brazil: 10-30 $ per hour | Depends on the State. Vacation?… Never
Ecuador : ~6 $ per hour | Quito
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ASIA & AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND (USD PER HOUR)
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Philippines: ~1 $ per hour | 2 hours site visit. 8 yrs experience.
China: ~7 $ per hour | 7 yrs experience
India: ~2 $ per hour | 3 yrs experience (renown studio in Mumbai)
S. Korea: ~12.5 $ per hour | 1.5 yrs experience (M. Arch.)
Jordan: ~5 $ per hour | Fresh graduate
Kazakhstan: ~4 – 10 $ per hour | Mostly doesn’t exceed $ 6 .
No health insurance as a rule. Flat rent is $ 500-1000 per month. Hard to survive, but I guess architect’s salary in Kazakhstan is highest in Central Asia.
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Indonesia: 1 – 15 $ per hour
1-3 | Beginners
5-15 | 10 yrs experience
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Iran: 1 – 25 $ per hour
Free | First year after school
1.5 | Young architects
up to 25 | Experienced architects
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Australia: ~18 – 90 $ per hour | …I’m still getting paid less than most of my friends.
New Zealand: ~13 – 30 $ per hour
13-15 | Beginners
18 | 2-5 yrs experience
20-30 | 5 + yrs experience
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Unless you are Santiago Calatrava, you will be making nada’ with this handicap economy!! It’s a shame! It’s a shame I tell you how this career field is coming to a vanishing point with less of prestige and appreciation. I think i agree that Architects make less money regardless of their skill.”
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- Nice profession – terrible pay… Take it or leave”
- Nice hobby or obsession – terrible profession. Terrible pay.”
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My boss drives a Porsche – we come by bike.
That is really sad! In Holland working at McDonalds would pay better!!!
Oh god, why didn`t anyone tell me this 7 years ago?!
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IN PORTUGAL ARCHITECTS WORK FOR FREE!! As we are required to do an internship for the professional organization, this is unpaid. So the main architects take advantage of this fact, substituting employees architects who would have to pay, for interns for free! We do not need others to fool us. We do this to professional colleagues. Shame on us, architects…
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I look at these numbers, at your emotions and I am asking is this profession worth such pain? Just a question… Don’t rush to say out loudly “Hell, yeah…” Life is more complex than any emotional exclamation.
Depressing! It took me most of my study years to realize those “architecture…not recommended” sighs and comments from the older architects around me …
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Out of 175 comments there’s practically NOT a single positive reactions. Almost all comments are anonymous, incl. this one – mine. (Some links to a cool blog in the first few comments, that’s all…) Screw you architecture. You are dying anyway as a creative profession… It’s not about the pay only. After 15 yrs of hard work I’m about to leave you. Enough is enough.
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Greece: 1-5 years experience_ 5 to 8 euros per hour plus taxes without health insurance. Waitresses get the same plus the insurance!!
Thank you, Sofia.
The list would be incomplete without the Motherland of Classic Architecture.
Thank you Mr. A. Yergalee for providing a data about Kazakhstan through the Facebook.
Brilliant page. Very interesting to see the world view. Well done, Albert.
I shall spread details of your page to other architects.
Thank you, Iain.
18 £ per hour/ 1,5 years post Part 3.
that is in London
Don’t forget Scotland! Huge variance up here – chief divide being between central/eastern urban and highland/island rural locations. Edinburgh salaries highest (but property values and living costs also significantly higher than elsewhere) – still lower than London though.
Until I was made redundant in January I was on £26000 per annum as a recently-qualified Architect (large commercial practice). Not great for nearly 10 years’ study, but better than unemployment!
Zarobki we Francji…. Poczatkujacy po studiach – rok stazu za kilkaset euro/mc.
2-3 lata doswiadczenia ( czykli, sorry, zadne doswiadzcenie) to 1100 -1500 e/mc ( do reki, nie licze “skladek ZUS”). Kilka lat doswiadczenia – nadal “architekt – kreslarz – to w Paryzu 1700-1800 E na reke /mc/ caly czas pisze o etatowej pracy.
10 lat doswiadczenia, region Paryski, – ok 2500 E/mc (pensja na reke, 20 lat – maksimum 3500 E/mc, a jak jestes cudzoziemcem, max. 3000/mc.
Jesli jestes na honorarium – to roznie….
Zatrudniam mlodych ludzi z Polski i okolic, bardzo rozny poziom, zadaja czasem 1800 E/mc, ale pracuja 2 razy wolniej niz Francuzi !!!! co kiedys bylo nie do pomyslenia. Ogolnie uwazam ze Polacy strasznie sie rozbestwili… poziom absolwentow jest strasznie niski, jedyne co potrafia to 3D i Photoshop, mierna wiedza o materialach i konstrukcji, wygorowane zadania, minimalna lub zadna motywacja.
Pozdrawiam
Z
English please. Or I will remove the comment.
I don’t care about the grammar or the style of your English, but we have to understand each other.
Thank you.
I left. 10 years later I call myself a “reformed architect” at parties, it gets the giggles from those in the know. Even more than the low pay prognosis, it was the politics, the stress, the very slow pace of change in the profession. I have utter respect for my friends who are in it out of love – architects are the Jedi knights of the professional world.
Jedi knights?… Yeah… that’s a nice definition…
I call myself sometimes a captain of the drowning ship, ’cause I’m afraid our beautiful ship called “Architecture” is sinking.
And you’re so right, money is not the main issue…
Thank you Albert for this more than useful information. It should actually be sent to all 1st year students in architecture.
I’d recommend to make it part of their curriculum
Suggestion: become an engineer. I’m sure lots of people will think this is stupid, but architects have lots of great transferable skills they can apply to all sorts of jobs.
Architecture is a very cool thing to do, but how much time do you actually spend doing the good bits? Other jobs can also have elements of design, depending on the job, and architecture can happen after 5.30 when most people go home.
Engineers are still generally able to get fees which cover their costs, they don’t work long hours and the pay is fairly decent even straight after graduation (around £14 per hour, £17 per hour after a few years – London prices). Engineering isn’t that hard, although you need to be a bit mathematical for the calculations, the rest is drawings, emails and meetings.
I love architecture but chose engineering because I wanted to do the science too. It has probably saved me a lot of late nights. We still get to design things, although not in such an aesthetic or conceptual way. It’s not architecture though, although there are specialisms which are more aesthetically led.
Fred, you’re not the first one who’s raising this issue. It is very interesting point. I wish I could hear on my blog more engineers like you presenting their ideas with tact and purpose…
I’ve always had an enormous respect for the people trying to turn arch. visions into the real things. My blog is always open for their comments, ideas & essays…
Your Switzerland evaluation is far from accurate. I, and a lot of people I know with a swiss diploma, make, as newcomers on the job market, around 35/40 CHF per hour, which makes around 30€. Some people with a foreign diploma would accept less, but they shouldn’t, really.
Thank you, Thomas. As I said the evaluations were coming from the individuals, so not always you can trust the emotions… Your numbers look much more realistic to me. I have fixed it.
I appreciate your remark, it’s important to provide a truthful picture. As much as possible of course…
I’m not sure this completely correct..
But I appreciate the post!
I’m not so sure by myself. That’s why I’ve made this remark:
“Remember those numbers are coming from the personal answers. So this is not an ultimate true. However the trend is crystal clear…”
“Architecture” is about how humans interact with the land and their environment. It can be a creative expression, as well as necessarily deal with the realities of economics and ecology. Which is why I’ve chosen to move in my professional career into the arena of true sustainable habitation by limiting human impacts on the land, and using regenerative process to heal what’s been destroyed. I link up with other people taking up the cause: conservationists, biologists, watershed experts, geologists, engineers, artists and other designers in the cause of projects that serve human social as well as ecosystem needs. It’s a radical movement, but I think it will prevail and redefine the nexus of architectural services. Eventually the services provided will be of much more value than they are now.
Lots of ways to do this, on my blog at Greensward Civitas.
Gosh! I must be popular if people place their ad’s on my site
I laugh at the lack of money but more at the hollywood fallacy about the prestige of the Architect. But i’m sickened when hollywood celebrities pursue the architect ‘inside of themselves’. chin up lads , architects making money are in the business of architecture and most of them are spitting out crap and driving new earopean cars and failing marriages. Lets compromise to the business of architecture only enough to put food on the table and leave time for the hypotheticals in preparation for that wonder patron. keep the fire burning.
The only way to make money in architecture is:
1. to run your own practice. You have to be the boss, & not an employee. Fortunes will always favour those who take th risks of setting up there own practice, however modest
2. Use the cash flow from your practice to undertake meaningful small property developments (ie become your own client in some small way. Do what your clients do)
3. always have a project going on the side for yourself. Start small, and build from there.
4. Use the stunning & clever projects you do for yourself to extend your brand to your cash flow clients.
You suggest logical and reasonable strategies, Chris. In a few words it can be described as: be independent and be creative (in design & in business as well). Sounds great! Unfortunately life is not that simple and realization of these obvious steps is not easy at all… And very often, as architects say, the devil is in the details… )
I hear you. It’s true this strategy may work well in certain places. I’m in Melbourne Australia, & I have employed this strategy consistently for 10 years now, after starting my practice in 1995. The 1st 5 years I made just about every business mistake possible for an architect, & found I had effectively bought myself a job. A couple of great developer clients & a smart accountant had turned my focus from getting rich from architecture to using the cash flow from my business to invest in property. In Oz good property is a very reliable investment, but I understand that it’s not necessarily like that everywhere. In any case, investing the cash flow in some other income producing or longe term investment is a sound strategy. Use your cash to plant income sources around you. I found property the best, because it tapped into something I had an intimate knowledge, and used my skills specifically as an architect. In the end the architect becomes his own client. Ultimately, I dream of ditching all of my cash flow clients, but I rekon that’s about 10 to 15 years away. It’s what I’m focusing towards. Until then I’m happy to build the practice conventionally, but always having I small project running parallel with the practice at a time. So far it seems to be working quiet well. Let’s hope the property market in Oz remains healthy. In the end, this parallel project work, has lead to us being more independent over the years. We can be a little more selective with the clients we now choose to take on, & we generally try to only take on clients that are willing to accept fair & reasonable fees. Because we are now a little more independent, we can tell the clients who like to squeeze architects fees to take a hike. In this way we can maintain a better balance. This is only my experience, & I’m happy to share it, especially if it gives other architects some hope, or guidance. Chris D
If every architect becomes a boss, who are they going to be the boss of?
i think this survey refers to the other architects… the ones that are necessary for bosses to exist.
In Mexico
Starter $ 5,000 – 7,000 (USD) per annum
5-10 yrs experience $ 17,000 – 20,000 (USD) per annum
with Master or PhD degree + experience $ 25,000 – 40,000 (USD) per annum
In USA, near Washington DC… I am licensed architect and LEED AP after having worked my way to this point after starting as an intern draftsman some 25 yrs ago at $13,000 USD per annum. I now make $75,000 per annum and feel it is below market rate for a good economy, but better than good under the current circumstances.
I realize I will never be rich working for an employer, however, I am deeply grateful to have a job at all; particularly one that i enjoy- and it enables me to support a small family in a modest degree of comfort thanks to some prudence and a lot of luck.
Thank you for this informative blog. I see that worldwide we share many of the same problems, and should consider myself even more fortunate..
Best of luck to all of you. I sincerely hope that the global recession turns around soon and we can all enjoy better times ahead.
I can try to throw in some numbers about the salaries of architects in Turkey
an architect working for a municipality gets paid around 2200-3000 TL monthly as net income. (1€ equals roughly 2,5 TL so lets say 880 – 1200 €/mo.)
this is the good pay with 9-5 jobs 5 days a week.
for people who are working for private companies the ranges seem to be:
1-5 years of exp. 1000-1500 TL / mo. (400 to 600 €/mo.)
5+ years of exp. with master or phd. 2000-4000 TL / mo. ( 800 to 1600€/mo.)
we are talking about at least 50hr weeks, so lets stay optimistic and say 200 hrs. in a month
1-5 years of exp. 2-3 €/hr net income
5+ years of exp. with master or phd. 4-8€/hr. net income
Depressing but so very true. I’m “second thinking” it after 20 years….a shame really. The economy in the US has devastated careers. It’s no wonder the work, production, has gone over seas. Those are “sweatshop” numbers trained people are willing to work. It’s for sure a dying proffesion with “DNR” forms signed.
Emm I really do need some help here. I am now fresh out of college and was thinking majoring architecture in university. I knew the economics was and is still really bad, but I kept on convincing myself to just do it and pursue what I like. But after seeing this, I’m really worried now and is really rethinking my option. Maybe I should just pursue engineering? Will I be regret later on in my life? Help??